Episode 49: Yes AND … ! What Gini Dietrich and I Learned From Each Other

[00:00:00] Tara: You’re listening to the Communications Business Advisor Podcast, the podcast for communications professionals in the corporate world who are committed to advancing their work and our field’s reputation as critical business advisors that are not only invited to the decision-making table, but are required there.

I’m your host, Tara McDonagh. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of the Communications Business Advisor. I am here, your host, Tara McDonagh, with a special guest today, Gini Dietrich. You may know her. Hopefully you’ve heard of her. If you haven’t, um, we’re gonna talk today and it is gonna be a real treat.

And if you have and you know of her, and maybe you’re even in her community, you’re gonna learn some really interesting new things, and we’re gonna have a little bit of a chat back and forth. Gini and I have circled each other for a few years, and this is our first time where I’m actually looking at her across the screen right now, and I’m like h- and we both said earlier, “How have we not talked before?”

Right. 

Because, uh, she’s actually referenced my, um, some of my content in her Spin Sucks, um, newsletter, and in her… If you haven’t followed it, she does also have a Spin Sucks podcast. And we’ve worked with some mutual clients before, so we, um, we’ve definitely appreciated each other’s work, and we thought, what better way to, to share some perspectives with all of you and, and help everyone in our comms community advance, um, than to get together and talk here.

So, um, Gini, feel free to tell me, how did I introduce you? Did I do okay? Tell m- That was great … tell us how you wanna introduce yourself. No, that was 

[00:01:47] Gini: great. Yeah, yeah, no. That was great. And I lo- I love y- to your point, like we have been circling each other f- for years. 

[00:01:53] Tara: Yeah. 

[00:01:54] Gini: And so when Akilah was like, “I think you can get on this podcast,” I was like, “Yes.”

[00:01:58] Tara: Oh, great. Yay. So 

[00:02:01] Gini: thank you. Yay. 

[00:02:02] Tara: Yeah, I’m really excited to talk with you. So I’m… If you don’t know Gini, she is the founder of the, uh, PESO model, sometimes referred as PESO. It’s PESO. It’s PESO. And I just cleared that up. I just cleared that up, which I, I was glad to know that I’ve been referring it the correct way for years, ’cause you never know.

But for those of you who don’t know, that is… I viewed it, I think incorrectly perhaps, as a view of how to look at content. Um- Mm-hmm … paid- Interesting … earned- Mm … shared, owned. And I know it’s more expansive than that, and how you think about it as I dug in even to prepare for this interview made me view it a little differently, even from, from my original view of this is the way to look at content.

So I’m interested in hearing, like i- I think it’s what, 10 years now that this model has been around? 

[00:02:57] Gini: Well, 12? 

[00:02:59] Tara: 12 years 

[00:02:59] Gini: 13? 13 years? Geez. 13 years. 

[00:03:02] Tara: Okay. Well, congratulations. So 

[00:03:03] Gini: old as my kid. That’s how I’ll remember it. 

[00:03:05] Tara: Ooh. How old is my kid? That’s, that’s a good way, that’s a good way of, uh, not forgetting.

Um, so I’m interested in hearing about, like, what, what’s… For those of us in the audience who aren’t clear on what this is, how do you describe it? And then let’s talk a little bit about what’s new from it and, and what communicators, PR professionals, those who are listening here can, can glean from using it.

[00:03:34] Gini: Sure. Um, it’s funny that you say you viewed it from a content perspective, and I think that’s my fault. Um, so I apologize. But, you know, it was a very… I’d love to say that we sat down and we were like, “Let’s create this model, and let’s copyright it, and let’s take it to the industry, and it’s gonna be…” It…

Like, none of that. That none of, none of those conversations happened. Mm. All of the copyright and trademark and protection came later, after we realized, “Oh, shoot, we have something here,” um, much later. Mm. But, you know, it really, when we launched it, it was a way to think about the tactics. It was a way to think about h- you know, how it’s not just media relations that we do.

We actually do other things. Yeah. As to, to a point that you had on LinkedIn a few days ago. Mm-hmm. Like, the- there’s, there’s a point to this, right? And it’s not just media relations. Mm. And we were looking at it from a- the perspective of being able to educate clients. Like, you know, we, at the time we worked with small to medium-sized businesses, and usually it was directly with the CEO, and they were like, “Get us on the front page of The New York Times,” or back in the day—oh, our favorite

“Get us on Oprah. Get us on Oprah.” Oh, our favorite. “

[00:04:43] Tara: You’re in Chicago. Get us 

[00:04:43] Gini: on Oprah.” We’ll make it go 

[00:04:45] Tara: viral. Make 

[00:04:47] Gini: it go viral. I used to have a very, um, inappropriate joke about that that some business leaders didn’t appreciate, but let’s just say there are, were ways you could make things go viral that were maybe not- Well, now you have to tell us.

[00:04:58] Tara: Now 

[00:04:58] Gini: you have to tell us what it is … kicking each other in the privates that 

[00:05:01] Tara: n- n- Oh. Yeah. I was gonna say, you’ll have to tell me what that joke is now that you- Yeah, yeah, yeah … like alluded to it, and maybe I’ll put it in the, um, follow-up, uh, level up email for those of you who’ve s- subscribed. Um, okay. So yeah, they, they…

You’re, so your clients, uh, small to medium businesses, mostly CEOs, they were like, “How do, and how do we think of this, and how do we- Yeah … and what about taking out an ad in this?” Or- Yes. Yes … you know. Yeah. Or, or referring to sponsored content and saying like, “Why can’t we do this- Yeah … with free?” Yes. Yes. You know?

Yes. “Why, why can’t we do that-” Why do 

[00:05:40] Gini: I have to pay 

[00:05:41] Tara: for this? … earned media, essentially. Yeah. 

[00:05:42] Gini: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was very much like that. And the, if you look at the first graphic that was launched with the PESO model, I mean, it lists it lists Google Plus, it lists Vine. So yeah. I mean, it was, it, it was, it’s a special little thing.

So, you know, it has definitely evolved. It’s no longer a list of tactics. It’s no longer a way to think about how you integrate, you know, social media and content and in, in some regards, search engine marketing. Mm-hmm. And what, you know, a- as we all do, I grew wiser as I grew older, and, and I learned more, and the, my business grew, and the clients that we worked with grew, and then we started working with corporate communicators and realized that- There’s a big difference between working inside an enterprise org at a corp comms level a- versus working with the CEO, a founder- Yes

of a small, medium-sized business, right? Amen. And so it evolved with that. Mm-hmm. And now it’s really become more of an operating system that sits underneath your comms program, marketing too, but underneath your comms program, and really it’s about how you create the flywheel that compounds over and over again instead of, “Oh, we’ve got content over here, and we’ve got media relations here, and we’ve got social media here, and we’ve got the paid media team over here,” who everybody loves and loves to give money to because they all have- Yeah

ways to measure their work, right? Right. Now we’re, we’re thinking about, how do we bring that together so th- the story c- compounds year over year over year. 

[00:07:11] Tara: Yeah. Building essentially what we’re all here to do, which is the- Right … reputation. Yes. And, um- 

[00:07:17] Gini: Trust and all those things, yeah … 

[00:07:18] Tara: yeah. And you, you spoke to something where I thought, I think I’d like to explore later, uh, so I’ll put a pin in it for now, but this whole concept of, yeah, it is different when you’re working with a marketing leader versus when you’re working with a corp comm leader.

[00:07:33] Gini: Yeah. 

[00:07:34] Tara: Size of organization very much- Yeah, yeah … um, makes a difference. And how you’re structured as an organization, which is something I really spend a lot of time on and help people with, is, um, can be very different based on size of organization, complexity of organization, all of the things, and yet I think, I hope we all agree, you, I, and listeners, that it all needs to work together in order for it- Yes

to work. 

[00:08:03] Gini: Yes. It does. It does. Yeah. And the, the silos that we all inevi- inevitably create don’t work. They don’t work. 

[00:08:11] Tara: Right. Agreed. Um, so tell us a bit about how it has… I, I did read, like, oh, it’s, it’s no longer really a framework, it’s an operating model, so I’m, I’m super curious about that. Why did you see the need to evolve it as an operating model, and, and how do you…

how should we think of it as an operating model? 

[00:08:32] Gini: The way I like to describe it is a framework is something you learn once and you can apply and you’re finished. 

[00:08:39] Tara: Yeah. 

[00:08:39] Gini: And because PESO continues to evolve, especially, you know… I mean, we, we took it from a very tactical list and we got rid of Google Plus and Vine.

We moved it to more strategic outcomes, looking at the outcomes versus activities. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, with AI, we started to incorporate AI probably in ’23, early ’23. And this year we had to do a complete refresh of everything because, you know, I know, everybody who’s listening knows that AI has completely upended everything.

And because of that, it’s no longer a framework that you learn once and you apply and you’re done, you’re finished, right? Right. Now, it’s constantly changing, it’s constantly evolving. The way that AI is affecting the work that we do, we continue to learn more and more and more about how LLMs are learning, right?

Yeah. And how owned, earned, and shared kind of take that for- forward seat and what that means. And so we looked at it li- early last year, early 2025, to say, “Okay, if it’s no longer a framework, what is it that we’re dealing with? And if we’re going to continue to evolve it, which we are, what does it become?”

And so it’s easier for people to understand, okay, it used to be a list of tactics. I could learn it once, I could apply it, and I’m done. Well, now it’s evolved because of everything that’s changed in the industry, and now it’s that- Mm … it’s that system that sits underneath the work that we do- Mm-hmm … to ensure that we’re integrated and measurable.

[00:10:03] Tara: I like that as far as thinking about it as a system, and I mean, our whole industry is always changing, right? So I feel like- Right … who better positioned than to take on AI and figure it out and make use of it than the comms field and the marketing field- Yes … we’re the ones- Yes. Yes. … who had to, like, figure out how, what social media was to, to brands and what that…

I mean, we were the ones who had to figure out what the internet… I mean, come on. God. Yeah. We have always been able to reinvent and make what we do better, so who better to kind of… I always say that to people who are worried about AI or concerned about it. I am not concerned about it in terms of- I’m not either.

Yeah … our jobs at all. Um, I do think it will separate those who are, those who are really great at execution- Yes … meaning writing, development, et cetera, that will no longer be enough, and it’s going to be about judgment and, um, how you work- Critical thinking … with others. Yes, yes, yes. And seeing the, the global view.

And by that I don’t mean global like, uh, geographically, I mean seeing the entire view of the business- Yeah … and being able to- Yep … navigate decisions and not take orders, and, and I think that’s gonna be so critical. But I think that’s also where, why I think what I like about your model and mine is that they connect.

It’s sort of about- Yes … how, mine is about your approach and how you think and how you, how you, how you approach your peers, how you advocate for your field, how you build a plan that can be executed, that can, um, that speaks to the people in the room at that highest level, and yours is about how to actually do it, like, how to, how to make it happen.

So I think that they’re very complementary in terms of- I do 

[00:11:54] Gini: too. Yep … 

[00:11:55] Tara: how we, how we work. I think how we think is shown up in, in your, your model, now operating model, um, or operating system, and in my, in my thinking about what is brand new now, the, the comms team authority index- Mm-hmm … to kind of understand where you sit and how you can kind of continue to advance as a communications advisor.

They’re super complementary I think. I’d love to know a little bit more about something you really touched on lightly that I think every communicator in existence is like, “Yes, and say more about that,” which is measurement. 

[00:12:30] Gini: Ah, yes. 

[00:12:31] Tara: So say more. Mm-hmm. I don’t even know what to ask. It is- Just say more. … 

[00:12:36] Gini: so funny because You know, my goal has always been, and what drives me, is measurement.

It al- it always has, since I was an itty-bitty, tiny, like, professional. Mm-hmm. It’s always been the thing that I’ve wanted to figure out. And, you know, things change and things have evolved, and the internet certainly made it easier, social media made it easier. Like, all of the things- Mm … the data that we have available today has made it easier, and yet- 

[00:13:04] Tara: And yet

[00:13:05] Gini: I go into meetings with clients who are chief communications officers at large companies, and every single one of them, without fail, failure, says, “We have not figured out measurement.” 

[00:13:19] Tara: Same. 

[00:13:20] Gini: When you look at it, they’re measuring activities, right? 

[00:13:23] Tara: Yes. 

[00:13:24] Gini: And I think the industry overall has been, like, measuring your impressions, measuring your number of placements, measure share of voice, measure this.

And- Yeah … it doesn’t mean anything. That’s activity. It- Yes … certainly tells us if something’s working or not, but it’s not the … It’s the start, not the end, and we use that as the end. And without fail, truly, every single conversation I have is about measurement, how, how we haven’t figured it out, and how they need a design.

But I think partly because it’s a really left brain activity- 

[00:13:56] Tara: Mm-hmm … 

[00:13:57] Gini: to, to measure, and most comms pros are right brained. People 

[00:14:00] Tara: are right brained. 

[00:14:01] Gini: Yeah. 

[00:14:01] Tara: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:02] Gini: So it’s hard to 

[00:14:02] Tara: make- I think it’s because- … 

[00:14:03] Gini: that connection … 

[00:14:04] Tara: I think it’s because we’re also, um, yes, we are, we’re very much creators, and we love to live in the creator space.

Um, but we, we then know that the science of it is kind of our blind spot. And so we- Yeah … want some more science behind it to, to fill in the blind spots. But I also tell people that we need to recognize that our field is science and art. 

[00:14:26] Gini: Yes. 

[00:14:26] Tara: And we don’t need to apologize- Yes … for the art of it. 

[00:14:29] Gini: No. 

[00:14:29] Tara: And that- That’s 

[00:14:31] Gini: what makes us good

[00:14:32] Tara: right. And so they’re looking, everyone’s looking for, like, bulletproof ways. 

[00:14:36] Gini: Yeah. 

[00:14:37] Tara: And it’s sort of like, you know, I don’t think that there is a field that has bulletpro- You could look at any measurement field or any field where they’re trying to measure anything, and you can put bullets in any, any of them.

[00:14:47] Gini: Absolutely, yes. 

[00:14:48] Tara: The thing is, I think we’re a little bit more nervous about it in our field because again, like you said, we’re, we’re the more- Yes … creator- Yes … vibe people. Yes. And, but you … And we’re also pushed I think early in our careers, early-ish, I don’t know, I’ll say, like, manager level, to measure, right?

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You, well, what does this mean? And so we measure, but again, we’re measuring output, not outcome. 

[00:15:14] Gini: Right. 

[00:15:15] Tara: And that’s like, “Well, here’s how many impressions we got.” 

[00:15:18] Gini: Yeah. 

[00:15:18] Tara: And that literally means nothing. 

[00:15:20] Gini: Zero. It means nothing. It 

[00:15:22] Tara: means nothing. Yes. It, it, it doesn’t… I mean, it’s not a meaningful measure in, in general, but also it doesn’t mean anything to the people that you’re telling the measurement about.

They don’t even know what that means or why it matters. So then you have to explain, “Well, this is why this matters and this is what it measures.” And what I, I mean, you know this probably, ’cause I know we, we read each other’s content here, I talk a lot about measuring the business outcome- Yeah … not the, not the comms piece.

Yes, yes. And yes, true, you cannot take credit for every single business outcome as, like- Right … was this comms or was this something else? 

[00:15:58] Gini: Right. 

[00:15:59] Tara: But there are so, like, I teach this, I do this in my trainings about how to, how to connect your work to business outcomes- 

[00:16:07] Gini: Yes … 

[00:16:08] Tara: and measure them, and people are always shocked that there’s ways to do this.

And it’s like the problem is it takes work. It takes more work. Yeah, it 

[00:16:19] Gini: does take work. Yes, it 

[00:16:21] Tara: does. And that- A lot of work … takes people time and effort and energy- Yes, yes … that they don’t have ’cause they’re already- Yes … overwhelmed. 

[00:16:26] Gini: Yes, and they don’t enjoy it. 

[00:16:28] Tara: Right, and I’ve been there. Like, I’ve been there.

Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Like, it’s like you get the thing done, and there’s 12 more things- 

[00:16:34] Gini: Mm-hmm … 

[00:16:34] Tara: that you should- Mm-hmm … have gotten done yesterday. Yes. And so who has the time to- Yeah … to do the business outcome measurement piece? Yes. But the thing that is challenging is that that’s the thing that will then solve so many of your problems.

It, it solves the problem of getting more staff, getting more resources, getting better, more respect- Yes, 

[00:16:52] Gini: yes … 

[00:16:53] Tara: getting a seat at the table. Like, measurement is key to all of that, and it’s not just measurement, it’s measurement that’s meaningful to the executive team. 

[00:17:01] Gini: Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree with you.

I also, the, some of the things that we have run into to the impressions piece of it is- There are CEOs who continue to ask for that, and- Yeah … it’s a real struggle because they like that big number. It- And even though they realize it doesn’t mean anything, they can go into a board meeting and say- Yeah …,”We got 950 billion impressions.”

There ain’t even that many people in the world. Right. But okay. Um, right? Like- 

[00:17:26] Tara: I know. Well, I like to, I like to tell people- … use what you have to use, like, but- Yeah … but bring people along- Yes … over time- That, that’s exactly right. Yes … to what you know is a more meaningful measure- 

[00:17:37] Gini: Yes … 

[00:17:37] Tara: so that it’s like you’re not just sharing one thing.

Yeah. It’s not just the impressions, right? Yes. Because then you’re sharing the story along the way, because how many times are the CCOs in the room where they’re able to share the actual results with the board directly? 

[00:17:52] Gini: Right. 

[00:17:52] Tara: Right? That’s what we want. Right. We want them- That’s exactly right. Yes … to be able to tell the story of measurement- Yes

not just, “Here’s the impression number on a slide,” that the CEO’s gonna share with the board. 

[00:18:03] Gini: Right. 

[00:18:03] Tara: Um, hence, like again, we need to be higher level in this world- Mm … that we’re in, this corporate world that we’re in. 

[00:18:10] Gini: Yes. 

[00:18:11] Tara: What are your clients measuring right now? Like, what are you encouraging them to measure when it comes to, like, what’s new?

If it’s not impressions, what is it? 

[00:18:20] Gini: You know, it, it depends, of course, which is a crappy answer. I know. But if you can do things like reputational levers and brand lift, I, I really encourage that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It doesn’t have to be a huge, expensive study, but it should be done consistently and quarterly.

Right now, I will say we’re spending a lot of time, a lot of time, on AI visibility and how to measure that. Mm-hmm. Yes. And we’re doing s- There, we do have some clients who are willing to put some money behind some tests, so we’re doing a couple of, of tests right now just to see, like, what kind of organic reach you can get if you need to do some sponsored content or things like that, and if that- Yeah

shows up in LLM. So we’re testing a whole bunch of different things. Nobody really knows yet. Yeah. And so, we do have some clients who are willing to put some dollars behind those kinds of things, so we’re spending a lot of time on that. But I would say if you can look at reputational levers, where that’s shifting, brand lift, that kind of stuff, it, that’s really valuable, because then you can start to demonstrate your content and your media relations are affecting those things big time.

[00:19:28] Tara: Yeah. 

[00:19:28] Gini: Um, so you may not- And- … be able to say people converted to a customer because they read this article, but you can say our reputation or our brand or our market share lifted because of that. 

[00:19:42] Tara: I agree with that. I think that’s, like, a good quantitative measure. 

[00:19:45] Gini: Yeah. 

[00:19:46] Tara: And I also think, like, on the … If you’re looking at the internal side, I think looking at employee engagement, whether your turnover is a good measure, net promoter score.

You’re laughing. I’m laughing. 

[00:19:58] Gini: What’s going on? I’m laughing because this is a massive issue with one client right now. We can’t get any of the data. Like, we can’t even get if- Yeah … if people are opening the emails from the leader. Like 

[00:20:09] Tara: I’m not shocked by it. It’s driving me crazy. How little I’m shocked by that.

It’s driving 

[00:20:12] Gini: me crazy. 

[00:20:13] Tara: How little I’m shocked by that is sad. That’s why I’m laughing. Ugh. Internal comms tends to be the red-headed stepchild of the communications world, I think, from as a- Yeah … sub-function. Limited dollars, limited work, and also everybody thinks that they know how to do it because- Uh-huh

they happen to be an employee inside a company and they communicate. Right. And so having been in PR, in internal comms, in public affairs, and executive comms- Ooh … and all of the above, having led all of them, I can tell you that my friends out there, I will tell you that internal comms is the one that’s hardest, not because it’s the hardest work.

It’s the hardest because it’s hard to get people to understand that just because they communicate doesn’t mean that they’re an internal communications expert. 

[00:20:54] Gini: Yes, yes. 

[00:20:55] Tara: I will also say that, so quantitative side, that’s important. Also, I mean, it also never fails to surprise me how many times internal communications doesn’t really get a voice in what the annual employee engagement survey is.

Ugh. And then the results come back, and it’s sort of like, well, are you talking about communication with your manager, or are you talking about communication at the company level when they talk about, like, communication’s terrible at the company? Well, what do you mean by that, right? And then they don’t know what to do with it.

[00:21:25] Gini: Right. 

[00:21:25] Tara: And th- that’s a big challenge, so one thing I always encourage internal communications leaders to do is get involved in the employee engagement survey and get a couple questions in, in there that will actually clarify your role and your piece in that. The other thing that- I, I’m gonna say this and I say it, I say it again, I’m gonna say it again again, I’m gonna tell them what I told them.

People don’t do enough qualitative measurement 

[00:21:52] Gini: Absolutely, yes 

[00:21:53] Tara: And qualitative measurement meaning, you know, I tell the story all the time in my trainings about an executive who wrote in an email to me that I saved the company millions of dollars. He gave me a specific number. “Communications preparedness saved our company that, you know, this- Wow

this many millions- Wow … and set the tone for future negotiations with our partners,” meaning, like, we’re gonna save more money in the future. And I tell the story about how that happened, which I’ll reserve ’cause it would take too long on this podcast to tell, but I tell the story of how that happened and I say, “If I didn’t ask him what he saw as the results of our work together- 

[00:22:38] Gini: Yep

[00:22:39] Tara: then I never would have known.” You would 

[00:22:39] Gini: never know, yeah. 

[00:22:41] Tara: Now imagine putting that quote in your performance review. Imagine- Right … putting it into your budget requests. 

[00:22:46] Gini: Yes. 

[00:22:46] Tara: Imagine putting it into, like, tell us what the impact of your work is. Well, this guy who’s an executive vice president of our organization said this about the work I 

[00:22:56] Gini: led.

That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Also, the fact that they know that is amazing. 

[00:23:00] Tara: True. That that took time to get there. Yeah, 

[00:23:03] Gini: I’m 

[00:23:03] Tara: sure. But I, I will say that, you know, I love a good challenge. I love walking into a, to a comms organization that’s a hot mess and being able to, like- Same … help the comms leader- 

[00:23:13] Gini: Same, yes

[00:23:13] Tara: get what they need, get, I mean, double budgets, double team size. Even in times of cuts, I’ve been able to get that done working with the leader, and I’m super proud of it. I feel like it’s a superpower and- That’s awesome … yeah. Okay, real quick. I’m gonna interrupt myself here to tell you about something new.

I’ve built something called the Communications Team Authority Index, and it’s kind of a big deal. 10 questions, five minutes, and it tells you exactly where your team sits right now in their communications business advisor path. Either they’re executing decisions, translating them, editing them, or in the room shaping them.

Most comms leaders think that they’ve got a seat at the table, but the index shows you which seat you’re actually in and what it takes to move up. Go take it at taramcdonagh.com. Okay, now back to the episode. So anyway, back to you, Gini. Um, so, um, measurement, yes, and we ta- we hit a little bit on AI. We

Let’s go back to talk a little bit about AI. Okay. So you wrote a piece about AI, and … Well, tell us a little bit about your piece, about how you wrote about AI and, and in response to, I think, an article and talked about- Was it 

[00:24:42] Gini: unpaid media? 

[00:24:43] Tara: Yeah. It was unpaid media. I 

[00:24:50] Gini: can’t. That’s never gonna get old. There was an article- Uh-oh.

I don’t even know if this is what you’re talking about, but there was an article in Media and Marketing Dive that talked about how LLMs are learning by, with unpaid media, and I was like, y- wait Unpaid media. Do you know what unpaid media is? 

[00:25:08] Tara: Yeah. 

[00:25:08] Gini: It’s what we’ve done- It’s PR … all of our careers. 

[00:25:11] Tara: Right.

[00:25:12] Gini: Come on, like really? So I, yes, and 

[00:25:18] Tara: Yeah … 

[00:25:18] Gini: if I take my, my husband’s Second City like improv, like yes, and. We- He’s constantly saying that to the teenagers here. Yes, and. Yes, and. It is unpaid media. It’s also called earned media or media relations. 

[00:25:31] Tara: Right. 

[00:25:31] Gini: Or public relations, right? But I think, you know, you were talking earlier about how we’ve had to figure things out.

We’ve had, we had to figure out the internet. We had to figure out search engine optimization. We had to figure out social media. Now we’re having to figure out AI, and I think you’re absolutely right from that perspective, and we tend to, as an industry, let marketing take it from there. So for instance- Mm-hmm

search engine optimization was a perfect thing for communicators. It’s media pitching. It was getting links in articles. It was getting links- Hmm … on high-domain-authority sites, and the SEO experts took it. Why, why do they have it? That’s not what they do, and when they do it, it’s really bad. It’s not good.

So like- 

[00:26:13] Tara: Yeah. You actually hit on something that I talk about too, in general, is that like don’t take on a portion of work because nobody else is doing it. Take it on if you think you can actually like make it work. And this is something like I, I’m sorry marketing friends, I love you, but a lot of you guys will take on work because nobody else is doing it.

Like, some of it is a land grab, frankly, and you do it- Yes … and it’s like it’s better served- Yes … by a different department. Yes. So why do it? There’s so much for you guys to do, and there’s so much for- Yes … comms to do. Like- Yes … don’t do work where you’re not the one that is positioned to be the expert or to- Yeah

learn to become the expert. Keep going. But 

[00:26:53] Gini: I think as an industry, we s- we take a step back and we’re like, “Okay, well now marketing owns SEO, and now they own social, and now they own content, and we still just do media relations.” And that’s not the case. I think you’re exactly right. There are opportunities for both.

I think customer service and sales can use all of that too, but they don’t- Mm-hmm … own it in the same way that marketing tends to. And I think that right now we are in a place where- Comms can own AI visibility and visibility- Mm-hmm … engineering because we know that- Mm-hmm … it starts with the owned media, with the content and the message and the story that we’re telling about ourselves online.

That’s not- Yeah … marketing, that’s communications. 

[00:27:38] Tara: Right. 

[00:27:38] Gini: It’s corroborated by third-party influencers, journalists, creators, new podcasts hosts, newsletter authors, social media, like, all of that, right? Influencers, yeah. It’s corroborated by that, and then we’re starting to find that community s- discussions are starting to affect it as well.

Right now, it’s LinkedIn and Reddit. I imagine that’s going to grow, right? So we continue to see that the things that we do as communicators, and have always done- Mm-hmm … is affecting this. And, and one of the things I don’t wanna see happen is for our industry to go, “Okay, well, we kinda figured it out, and this is how it works, so” and then the marketing pros take over, because it’s not.

Marketing, to your point, has a place. 100%. We’re the brand storytellers, they’re the product and sales. Like, let’s- 

[00:28:23] Tara: Right … 

[00:28:24] Gini: right? 

[00:28:24] Tara: Marketing empowers sales, comms shapes the story and protects the brand. 

[00:28:30] Gini: Yes. 

[00:28:31] Tara: We’re crisis preventers. 

[00:28:33] Gini: Yes. 

[00:28:33] Tara: We are crisis managers. We are, we can be used to advance sales through- Yes

brand advancement and storytelling, and that is a piece of what we do as communicators. But yes, if it’s, I imagine, again, I’m gonna just kind of pontificate here, that LLMs will continue to look at third-party validation in order to decide what they’re going to put forth in responses to questions- Yes. Yes

and information provided. And even more so because that’s sort of like this whole concept of whose information do you trust, right? Right. 

[00:29:14] Gini: Right. 

[00:29:15] Tara: And sure that we can have a conversation about do you trust media. Well, you trust media more than you trust the company talking about themselves. 

[00:29:21] Gini: Right. 

[00:29:21] Tara: Yes. And that’s why we exist- Yes

as PR professionals. 

[00:29:25] Gini: Yes. 

[00:29:26] Tara: And so that’s only going to grow. And I mean, I think that there was even a study … I know that there was a study, and I don’t remember who it was from, but I will link it in the comments, in the show notes, about how budgets are increasing for, or expected to increase for PR in 2027 because of LLMs.

Have you seen that? 

[00:29:46] Gini: I saw it. I can’t remember who did it either. I’m not sure I believe it because- 

[00:29:50] Tara: Ooh, t- say more. Hmm … 

[00:29:52] Gini: well, y- I mean, I run a business, right? Yeah. And we haven’t seen that yet. I mean, Q4 will tell us for sure- Yeah … whether or not that’s going to come to fruition. But right now, I think it’s all talk, and we haven’t seen that in play yet.

[00:30:06] Tara: I think this is the opportunity to make the, make the play for it, though, because I don’t think- Yeah. Oh, 

[00:30:10] Gini: totally. Yes … 

[00:30:11] Tara: a lot of people are positioning it that way when they’re looking for budget. Yes. And saying, like, “AI impact on… And this is how it’s being used, and this is how we can ex- expect it to be used.

And we can shape that if you-” reinvest. Yeah. Double down- Yeah … essentially. 

[00:30:30] Gini: Yes. Yes. 

[00:30:31] Tara: Um, so if you’re out there listening, this, you know, when you’re asking for budget- It’s time … this is a, this is a really good opportunity- Yeah, yeah … using AI as a force multiplier to, to get some more focus on earned media, and frankly, how that earned earned media is used to then supply results.

Right. Essentially, I, I- Right … saw someone recently, a speaker, talk about AI, and he’s like, “Essentially, it’s search engine results.” It’s basically that’s… We’re, we’re making it complex. It’s not that complex. It’s essentially like- 

[00:31:03] Gini: That’s fair. 

[00:31:04] Tara: Yeah … answering a question, and is your- That’s fair … company, is your organization, are you going to be part of the results or not?

Yeah. 

[00:31:12] Gini: That’s fair. 

[00:31:13] Tara: You don’t wanna be left out of the results- Right … is his point. Yes. So when there was a huge money grab for SEO, it’s kinda same thing, but even more so now. 

[00:31:23] Gini: Yeah. 

[00:31:23] Tara: So don’t we wanna be part of that? Yeah. Um, this is a 

[00:31:26] Gini: really good- Yeah, I think the difference now, and to the… I… That’s a really good way of looking at it.

The difference now is, like, three companies would be recommended now, where you would have pages and pages and pages. You might not go past the first page of 10 results, but still 10 results is better than three, right? 

[00:31:41] Tara: Right. 

[00:31:42] Gini: So now it’s, it’s, uh, to your point, I think it’s a faster opportunity, but- 

[00:31:47] Tara: Yeah … 

[00:31:47] Gini: a great way to start thinking about it, because as budgets are being allocated for next year, that’s one of the things we should be talking about, for sure.

[00:31:55] Tara: Yep. And I also saw something you wrote about AI and women. I think it was a response to Alex Karp. 

[00:32:03] Gini: Ah. 

[00:32:04] Tara: So tell me more about your thoughts there. 

[00:32:07] Gini: He talked about how… The way he made it s- it made me mad, because the way he made it sound- … is that they’ve intentionally left out sort of the, what I’ll call softer skills, the empathy, the intuition- 

[00:32:21] Tara: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:21] Gini: sympathy, critical thinking, those kinds of skills that are necessary. Mm-hmm. They’ve lo- left that out of AI on purpose, and because of that, women will get left behind, because- Mm … those are the things that we tend to be better at, right? We tend to be- 

[00:32:36] Tara: Yes … 

[00:32:37] Gini: better multitask, m- m- multitaskers- Proven … better…

Actually. Yes. Yes. Yes. We tend to be all, all of those things. 

[00:32:43] Tara: Yes. And first of all, I will say, okay, yes, not all men, like, I agree. 

[00:32:48] Gini: Yes. 

[00:32:48] Tara: But also, like, this is just a statistical thing that, like, generally speaking, women are better at these things. Yes, absolutely. It’s been a proven, studied- Yeah … phenomenon, okay?

[00:32:57] Gini: But AI doesn’t have those- 

[00:32:59] Tara: Things 

[00:32:59] Gini: built into it … quote, unquote, “skills”- Right … bu- built into it, and so because of that, it’s going to leave women behind. It made me mad. Um- Mm … and he’s very, he was very nonchalant and bro-like about it. You know, he was just like- Mm-hmm … “Well, this is just how it is.” And I was like, “That’s not how it needs to be, though.”

And- Right … yeah, it’s true I’m not building the LLMs, but I… The work that I do is af- is affecting how it’s being trained. So I think we need to be thinking about those things, too, just from the perspective of- We don’t need, women do not need one more reason to be left behind, right? Yes. We still don’t have equality in the workforce.

There sh- we still do the lion’s share of work at home. We’re still not paid at the same level. Like, all of the things. We don’t need- All 

[00:33:38] Tara: the things … one 

[00:33:38] Gini: more reason to be left behind. 

[00:33:41] Tara: Yeah. It actually connects to something. I, I did a whole series on AI in comms recently, and interestingly, the one I wrote about related to women in comms was kind of shadow banned on- Oh

LinkedIn. And so I responded to that by making it the entire post of my newsletter the following week. And what was interesting about that was I kind of dug into a few different studies, and it essentially said the, the studies combined in three different ways, said essentially that women are more adept at using AI.

They’re better, they’re, they ha- they’re more likely to be experts in using it. They are also afraid to tell people they’re using AI because they fear judgment for using it. 

[00:34:28] Gini: Yep. 

[00:34:28] Tara: And then another study said, well, they’re right to think that because women are judged, um, they’re viewed as less trustworthy, was the word, when they admit they use AI, whereas men were not viewed the same way And yes.

And so it’s sort of like, oh, well, well why would, why would we be afraid to use AI? Like, that’s just like women are being afraid to use it. We should, we should make it okay. Tell them it’s okay, right? They should use AI and be proud of it, and use it, and tell people they’re using it. Well then, but yet, you know, again, when we do tell people, we’re criticized for it in a way that men are not.

And so I brought this to light mainly because we are a field dominated in numbers by women, and men, many of the men who are in this field manage women- Mm-hmm … and are working with women undoubtedly in this field. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so you may hear people say, “Well, just use AI for that. Use AI for this. Use AI for that.”

And yet we all need to understand I don’t want women to not use AI. I use AI. I want other people- I use AI … to use AI. Yep. I use AI for my business. Absolutely. Yes. I use AI in all… I teach other people how to use AI in a very basic way. I- Yep … don’t ask me for AI trainings. I don’t offer those. I can refer you to some people.

Um- 

[00:35:55] Gini: Oh. 

[00:35:55] Tara: But I do wanna make it clear that this is a thing, and so don’t gaslight people into saying that’s not a thing, right? And the more we can normalize it and celebrate- 

[00:36:09] Gini: I can’t. I can’t … 

[00:36:11] Tara: the ways that women use AI in comms, the more normal we make it, and the more justified we become in, in kind of waving our expertise flags, right?

I, I think it reminds me of times where people would give me very well-regarded advice on things like, you know, don’t, don’t have a picture of your daughter in your office ’cause they’ll, it’ll set certain impressions, and things like that. 

[00:36:36] Gini: Ugh. 

[00:36:37] Tara: Advice that I just, you know, was well-meaning because they- Yeah

experienced some- Sure … forms of oppression, but I just didn’t take because I wanted to go a different path, right? So my call to action for women out there was, and still is, like don’t not use AI. Use AI, but also in moments where it makes sense, you can drop insight like, “Did you know that it’s, that like women are viewed negatively when they admit that they’re use- they’re using AI?”

[00:37:03] Gini: That’s insane. 

[00:37:04] Tara: It’s, it’s insane, but true, right? I, I can’t. It, it kind of just connects to patriarchal systems that are already in place- You’re right. You’re right … which is part of why AI- Yes … is built the way it is- Yep … and why Alex Karp was kind of like- Yep … “This is the way it is. Oh, well.” But I kind of link that to this thinking of like way back, way back in the day, I did PR for one of the first companies that did facial recognition software.

[00:37:27] Gini: Hmm. 

[00:37:28] Tara: And since then, we know that there has been a lot of challenges with facial recognition software. Misidentifying people of color. 

[00:37:41] Gini: Yep. 

[00:37:41] Tara: Because the training for it was basically based on white faces. 

[00:37:45] Gini: Yes. 

[00:37:46] Tara: And so I wonder, would it be, would it have been okay to say like, “Well, that’s just how the software works.”

Or do you start using people of color- 

[00:37:59] Gini: Right … 

[00:37:59] Tara: and start using the faces- Start using, yes … to retrain it, right? 

[00:38:02] Gini: Yes. Right. 

[00:38:03] Tara: It’s sort of like, and for men- 

[00:38:06] Gini: Ugh, you’re gonna make my head explode. 

[00:38:08] Tara: For men, I think that this is a real opportunity and a call to action where so many men out there, many of th- them who follow my content or are my clients, they’re real, like, they wanna be advocates and allies, right?

But, but advocates and allies require action. They… Correct. Right And so this is a, this is a way where we can kind of say, “Oh, so and so built this using AI and it’s brilliant.” Right? Set the tone in a way that shows this as a positive and just reinforces that the expectation is that this is just the new way of how we do our work, and it’s smart, not something we need to hide from.

But know that that’s a real thing that women might be wrestling with, and that’s different from what men might wrestle with when it comes to using AI. 

[00:38:58] Gini: It’s funny you say that because I have an exact example from, like, three weeks ago where that happened to me, and I was like, “Well, you use AI.” Like… 

[00:39:07] Tara: Right.

[00:39:08] Gini: But I didn’t really realize that that’s what was happening. 

[00:39:11] Tara: Right. So I mean- 

[00:39:12] Gini: My, my head’s gonna explode. I can’t, I can’t. 

[00:39:14] Tara: I feel like awareness is the biggest- Yeah … biggest, like, opportunity we have to shape the conversation here, where it’s like once people know that that is the truth, they can then drop the bomb of knowledge before they actually tell you what they’re doing.

So it’s like, “Did you know that women… I built this whole thing using AI. Interestingly, did you know that women are viewed negatively when they use AI and, and their trustworthiness is questioned, whereas men it’s not? Isn’t that really interesting? Anyway, back to my topic- … on how I built this brilliant AI thing.”

I just, I think that- Oh … nobody wants to be, you know, misogynistic or wants to,

to view things differently- Well, I wouldn’t say nobody- … based on gender … wants 

[00:39:57] Gini: to, but. 

[00:39:58] Tara: Okay. Well, most people. Some 

[00:40:00] Gini: men do not want to. 

[00:40:02] Tara: Right. Um, most, most do not. And honestly, like, women, women sometimes view this way about our own gender. So I think- 

[00:40:10] Gini: Yeah, 

[00:40:10] Tara: same. Yeah … we’re all grown up, we all grew up in the same society- 

[00:40:13] Gini: Yep

[00:40:13] Tara: that set the right tones for us. Anyway, the- these are things that we talk about a bit in Raise the Tide, um, the program that I run for, for women in the field, um, to help them advance in their careers. And really it’s about, like, just kind of finding a way to tell people who you are, how you work, and what you do- 

[00:40:32] Gini: Yeah

[00:40:32] Tara: in a way that gives yourself permission to show up as your- as you are, and whether that’s using AI or whatever it is, being, you know, abrasive or being… or, you know, what’s called abrasive, which is essentially being like- passionate. Anyway, that was a side note, but something that I thought was kind of important connected to- I’m 

[00:40:53] Gini: glad you brought that up because now I, I will be a- I didn’t realize that, and I will definitely be an advocate for that.

Like, that’s… I’m so glad you brought that up. 

[00:41:01] Tara: Yeah. 

[00:41:03] Gini: We need to- Mind-blowing. Mind-blowing. Mind-blowing stuff. We need to own AI 

[00:41:06] Tara: and, and also, like, recognize that if there are ways that you’re feeling worried or nervous about it, that’s fair, but there are also ways to essentially own it anyway- Yeah … and use it anyway.

[00:41:19] Gini: Yep. I love the example of you n- not listening to the, quote-unquote, “advice” about not having photos of your daughter in your office. 

[00:41:28] Tara: Yeah. Like, 

[00:41:29] Gini: that’s stupid. M- they, a man would never be told that. But the, it’s the same thing we’re talking about here, is you can use AI. You should use AI. If you don’t use AI, you will get left behind.

Right. That’s what will replace you in your job. Not AI, but the fact that you’re not using it. So let’s talk about the fact that we are seen as less trustworthy as, if, if we use it, and let’s change that mindset. 

[00:41:53] Tara: Yeah. I, I’m 100% with you on that. 

[00:41:56] Gini: Ugh. 

[00:41:57] Tara: Let’s, let’s talk — I love that I got you fired up on this-

because- No … you know, this is the stuff that I’m, I’m super passionate about. I wanna elevate our field and the people in it, and if more than half of the people are women, then we gotta- Yes … like, actually- Yes … look at the intersection of gender dynamics- Yep, yep … and our field. 

[00:42:17] Gini: Yes. 

[00:42:17] Tara: I made the word of the year for communicators authority- 

[00:42:21] Gini: Loved

[00:42:21] Tara: earlier this year. And so I’m curious about your thoughts about building authority, building… And I, I think that you’ve written a bit about it, and you’ve written also a bit about, like, this concept of trust, and, like, trust and connection with authority, and that… And, and, like, who’s doing it well, what brands are doing it well, even.

Like, tell me more about just your thoughts on when I say build authority, what do you think? 

[00:42:46] Gini: You know, I was on vacation in April, and we were at Zion National Park, which by the way, if you’ve not done, is phenomenal, and probably the best family vacation we’ve ever taken. Like, the kids were into it. They were hiking.

It was fantastic. Anyway- Writing 

[00:43:01] Tara: it 

[00:43:02] Gini: down right 

[00:43:02] Tara: now … they 

[00:43:03] Gini: also, they also are teenagers, so they didn’t get up until noon. So each morning, I had time- … to myself, right, to, like, think, and, you know, I was doing some hiking, and I was kind of by myself with my own thoughts. And I thought, “You know what would be interesting, is if I took a well-known brand once a month, and I s- and I put it into the PESO model diagnostic that we use for our clients.”

[00:43:23] Tara: Mm. 

[00:43:24] Gini: Using… You know, it’s different because it’s, it’s information that I can only get out, from the outside. I’m not inside- Right … the, with the organizations. What would that look like? And so I started with Budweiser. I did HubSpot. I did Duolingo, and I did Peppa Pig. Um, I’m probably gonna do I haven’t decided what I’m doing this month.

Anyway, I run them through the diagnostic, and I look at, you know, whether or not they’re campaigns or if they’re integrated programs. And for the most part, the, what I have found is that they’re mostly campaigns. Real- really well run coordinated campaigns, but not- Yeah … integrated. But to answer your question, you know, from an authority perspective, I did Peppa Pig just kind of as a, a fun little thing because they did the, the nine-month pregnancy, and it was like, started with Peppa Pig was pregnant and then went all the way through her pregnancy, and then she had the baby.

And- I 

[00:44:21] Tara: didn’t even see that, and I don’t know how I didn’t see that- Yeah. 

[00:44:22] Gini: Well- … ’cause- … I think partly because it was in Europe. It was mostly- Yeah … in London, so it wasn’t- Okay … it didn’t get into the States as much as it probably could have. But there, it was like everywhere. Huge. 

[00:44:33] Tara: Thanks. 

[00:44:33] Gini: Okay. Huge. And they built authority for the brand in a way that was really creative and interesting, and the PR firm w- is the one that ran it.

Mm-hmm. So it wasn’t marketing led, it wasn’t brand led, it wasn’t advertising led. It was PR led, and it really was a really well-coordinated campaign that built authority for the brand really among, you know, parents who have kids that are gonna watch Peppa Pig. Right. But so not everybody. But I mean, but- But that’s their 

[00:45:02] Tara: target audience, so.

[00:45:03] Gini: Right. Right. The level of actual real results they got were incredible, and so the kind of authority that they were able to build through that, the only disappointing thing is it was a campaign, so it was nine months, and it was done. 

[00:45:17] Tara: Yeah. 

[00:45:18] Gini: S- but, you know, and I’m sure budgets and all of that come into play, but so that was a little disappointing, but from an authority perspective, they really crushed it.

[00:45:27] Tara: What did they do well? 

[00:45:29] Gini: Everything. I mean, when you look at it and you say, “This is the, the pinnacle of PR,” it, it really was. Because not only did they have all of the activity, you know, with like- Mm-hmm … everybody wrote about it, everybody talked about it. They had, um- 

[00:45:44] Tara: Everything. There was paid, there was earned, there was shared- 

[00:45:47] Gini: There was shared

there was owned It was, it was everything. And, like, even that they had out of home that they didn’t, that they earned, that they didn’t pay for, because some of the buildings lit up in pink when the baby was born. Oh, wow. I mean, just on their own. It was like Taylor Swift-esque level of- Oh, wow … I mean, it was.

Like- 

[00:46:04] Tara: Talk about authority, yeah … 

[00:46:06] Gini: it was, it was impressive. And, and they earned it all. None of that- Yeah … was paid for. The buildings were just like, “This is so fun,” and they lit up in pink the day the baby was born. Like, what? 

[00:46:16] Tara: Oh, I love that. 

[00:46:17] Gini: Yeah. It was super, super cool. And it’s a fun case study just to look at- 

[00:46:23] Tara: Yeah

[00:46:24] Gini: because of the way they did it, but it was all PR-led. 

[00:46:27] Tara: That’s awesome. I think, yeah, authority is, I think, the, the key, whether you’re looking at it from the perspective of how you build authority for the brand that you’re working with or in. Most of, most of the people who listen to this are in-house- 

[00:46:42] Gini: Sure

[00:46:43] Tara: and looking to build authority f- as, like, we are the organization to go to for X, right? Whether it’s, you know, university studies or hospital care or- Sure. Yep … um, widgets, right? Yep. But also authority when it comes to building your own- department, team, and individual reputation because the two go hand-in-hand.

[00:47:12] Gini: Absolutely. 

[00:47:13] Tara: Yes. You, you have to have that in order to pull off a campaign like, you have to have- Yeah … that internal authority- Yeah … in order to pull off a campaign like what you’re talking about, and you have to pull off a campaign like you’re talking about to continue with the authority that you’ve built.

[00:47:25] Gini: Absolutely. 

[00:47:26] Tara: Otherwise, you lose it. 

[00:47:27] Gini: Yeah. 

[00:47:28] Tara: Again, a way where we kind of cross over and intersect, where we’re doing different things, but they connect deeply. 

[00:47:34] Gini: Yeah. 

[00:47:35] Tara: I love it. Cool. That’s cool. I have one more question. It’s one where I wonder if we diverge in our thinking, so it could be- Hmm … an interesting, an interesting point of view.

Maybe not. And it’s this, it’s this concept of org model, comms, marketing. I view marketing as connected to comms, corp comms- Mm-hmm … but separate. Mm-hmm. I do see where marketing and comms can be the same, in the same- Mm-hmm … like, team up to a certain, let’s say, revenue perspective, or, like, at, you know, let’s say, like, I’d say one billion or more corp comm should be a function and, and/or if you have a highly regulated business.

Yeah. Like universities, hospital systems, insurance, things like that. Yep. I’ve really focused a lot of my work and, and my career, I started in PR, right? I started- Mm-hmm … I started agency side in PR, and then I moved into corporate communications. I’m, I led internal comms, public relations, public affairs, crisis communications, and I’m probably ex- forgetting one.

But I really look at it as, like, comms is not a function of marketing. Comms is its own thing, and marketing is a sibling. We are siblings, not identical clones of one another. And so my question is- Do we differ in that thinking? 

[00:49:16] Gini: No. 

[00:49:17] Tara: Oh, I’m surprised by that. No. So I thought you were gonna say, “No, they should always be together.”

No. Okay, so tell me, tell me what you think. 

[00:49:23] Gini: Well, I really believe, and I think I said this earlier, the, that comms is about reputation, trust, and authority, to use your word. Yes. Right. Um, it’s, it’s protecting the brand. It’s ensuring that trust is built when a crisis hits. And I always talk about how it used to be that crisis hit very few and far between, right?

Yeah. It’d be, like, a natural disaster. It would be a white-collar crime. It might be a, an employee shooting or something like that. Mm-hmm. But it happened to hardly anybody. Now it happens to all of us, and it probably happens once or twice a year at a minimum. Right. Right? 

[00:50:00] Tara: Yeah. 

[00:50:00] Gini: If you haven’t built trust, which is what comms is responsible for, then getting through that crisis is a lot more difficult.

[00:50:07] Tara: Right. 

[00:50:07] Gini: Marketing then I think is more, like, sales support, building the brand, product, go to market Yes … that kind of stuff, and they work together for sure. 

[00:50:19] Tara: Yes. 

[00:50:19] Gini: But I think different, they have different outcomes. 

[00:50:23] Tara: Right. Yay, okay. I’m, I’m glad that we see eye to eye on that actually, ’cause I was nervous about asking that question.

[00:50:29] Gini: Yeah. 

[00:50:30] Tara: But I, I think we see exactly eye to eye on that, and it’s funny because you’re like, “It used to be that the crisis happened rarely.” For me, since the time I stepped into a corporate job, it happened consistently. Oh, I’m sure. Where it was like- I’m sure. Yeah … you know, uh- Mm-hmm … three CEOs in one year, stock options backdating.

Oh my gosh. And then I was like, “Let’s leave behind this, you know, consumer-oriented business and go into B2B,” and then it was, you know… I, well, I worked in health insurance, and so you can imagine what that was like. Yes, yes. Also during the time that the Affordable Care Act was being passed, so. Oh, 

[00:51:10] Gini: Okay. 

[00:51:11] Tara: Um, I led crisis communications, so that was a good time.

Ooh. So yeah, I agree, and I, I think I used to think, like you, evolve, evolving thinking. I used to think that we were there to, again, advance the brand, like, have the brand credibility in place when the crisis hit, and help navigate the crisis, and help, um, the organization with that. And then I started thinking of it as, well, we can also sometimes prevent the crisis- Yes, absolutely

by making the business decision- Yes … before it gets to the place- Yep … where it’s going to become a crisis. 

[00:51:46] Gini: Yes. 

[00:51:47] Tara: And now I’ve come even further, which is where- I believe in sh- we need to be at the table to shape the decision before it’s being made Oh 

[00:51:55] Gini: my gosh, please. Yes. 

[00:51:57] Tara: And so it’s the difference between being invited at the table and being required there.

[00:52:03] Gini: Yeah. 

[00:52:03] Tara: And that’s, I built the, the communications team authority index to basically assess where a team is in that, in that journey to communications business advising, and it’s not a, it’s not a way of saying like, “Well you’re, you’ve failed if you’re only at level two.” It’s, it’s a way of saying like- Right

“Well this is where we are, and what can we do- Right … to get to the next stage without feeling- Yes … like we have to jump to level four right away.” Right. ‘Cause nobody can. You can’t- No … overnight- Right … build a trust and build authority and change minds, right? That’s, I mean, we do it externally f- as a, as a brand, and we tell people consistently, “Well, you can’t change minds overnight.”

Same thing when you’re building your own team function and you’re changing a reputation of what comms does within an organization. Same thing applies, right? It’s a journey. 

[00:52:55] Gini: 100%, yes. Okay. And I think you’re right in that when you were talking earlier about the authority that you have as an individual, you can’t be required at the, the decision table if you haven’t built that auth- authority for yourself and internally.

Mm-hmm. So I think it all- 

[00:53:11] Tara: Right … comes with it. And the word authority sometimes comes off as like, like, you know, telling them, you know, with a, with a hard fist, like- Yeah, yeah … “This is the way it is” With a ruler. And that’s not what I mean. I mean more like you’re the trusted expert. Yes. Right? Yes. Yes. It’s like people knowing that you’re the one who’s gonna speak the thing that they- Yes

need to remember- Yes … um, and hear and do. Yes. And so that’s what I, what I think of when I’m using the word authority. Anyway. 

[00:53:41] Gini: You know, if Callaway Golf had had a- … an authoritative communicator in the room, they probably wouldn’t have let Good Good release that ad, let’s just say. 

[00:53:49] Tara: Oh. You know what? I saw something yesterday about a new, another golf organization that kind of re- like almost built upon that ad, where it was like somebody taking their hand and lifting her up, and then what they’re doing- Oh

is like donating 20% of their proceeds- Wow … to, um, domestic violence shelters. Huh. Um, which I was like, “Way to build on the moment.” That’s 

[00:54:11] Gini: smart, yeah. 

[00:54:12] Tara: Yeah. 

[00:54:13] Gini: Really smart. 

[00:54:14] Tara: Yep. So brilliance. Okay. I know that you have, you, and you shared about it here, the, the, the diagnostic tool. Mm-hmm. You have a certification, right?

Mm-hmm. And I know I think you’ve- Yep … updated the certification recently. 

[00:54:29] Gini: We did, yeah. 

[00:54:30] Tara: And now we’re thinking about it as an operating model, which is super cool. Where can people go to learn more about all of this? 

[00:54:36] Gini: Uh, spinsucks.com. 

[00:54:39] Tara: Spinsucks.com. Okay, you heard it. Boom. Um, is there anything else you feel like our audience should hear or know about as we head into- you know, the fall.

[00:54:50] Gini: You know, we really, I think we talked about the big things, measurement, AI. Um, I think you’re absolutely right that now is the time to start building the case to ask for budget for what I’ll call visibility engineering, to make sure that you’re showing up in the answers for AI. 

[00:55:06] Tara: Mm-hmm. 

[00:55:07] Gini: Um, and it is, it really is, it’s led by owned and earned.

So those are the kinds of things that you should be thinking about asking for more budget to increase next year so that you can affect that. And you’re gonna have to test some things, like we talked about earlier, you know? We, you’re gonna have to test some things out ’cause we just don’t know yet. And we don’t know- Mm-hmm

how to measure it yet. We don’t know what the results are yet. We don’t know how to sort of engineer it like we did with SEO quite yet. Um, so some- Yeah … of it is, is testing, so you’re gonna have to be honest and say, like, “I probably need 20% of my budget for testing.” And that 20%- Yeah … might be 200 grand and it might be two grand, right?

But you have- Yeah … to have some money to be able to test too without being tied to results. 

[00:55:47] Tara: Okay. Gini, this has been awesome. I’m sad that we didn’t do this- We could do 

[00:55:51] Gini: this forever. 

[00:55:52] Tara: I know. I’m sad that we didn’t do this earlier. Me too. I’m glad we did this now. And I, I almost want to apologize to the listeners for making it longer than typical, but I don’t think we need to ’cause I think it was really interesting for them.

Um, it certainly was for me. 

[00:56:06] Gini: It was for me as well. 

[00:56:07] Tara: And I hope to have you on again in the future ’cause I think there’s a whole lot more we could talk about. 

[00:56:13] Gini: Well, and we’re launching something next year where I will have you on for, with us, so. 

[00:56:18] Tara: Yay. Stay 

[00:56:19] Gini: tuned. 

[00:56:20] Tara: Ooh, I’m excited. There you go, a little breadcrumbing from Gini Dietrich.

That’s right. 

[00:56:24] Gini: That’s right. Little Easter egg for you. 

[00:56:25] Tara: Okay. Um, I’m gonna link some, a bunch of stuff in the show notes, so folks, if you haven’t seen it already, um, if you don’t know where to go for Spin Sucks or you, um, want to learn all the things, we’ll make sure that we put links in show notes so that you can find all the things, and until next time, my friends, keep advising.

Always keep advising. If you’re interested in working with me to advance your work and your team’s reputation as critical business advisors, never order takers, check out taramcdonagh.com. Thanks for listening to the Communications Business Advisor Podcast. If you found this episode helpful, please leave a rating or a review.

It helps people find us, and we can’t ignite a movement without sharing the message. See you next time, where we’ll continue to do the work to elevate our field’s reputation and elevate the careers of the people in it.

I created Raise the Tide to help elevate our field and the women in it. It’s part community, part coaching, part professional development, and part mentorship. It encompasses all of these things because it takes all of these things to rise in your career. I asked a few Raise the Tide crew members to share what their experiences have been like in the program, and here’s what they had to say.

What’s one thing that’s been surprising to you about Raise the Tide? 

[00:58:00] Raise the Tide Member: I honestly was surprised by how quickly I felt part of something really unique and special. Something that surprised me about being in Raise the Tide is just how much I feel seen. My crew holds up a mirror for me and even helps me see myself in ways that I haven’t before.

It’s extremely validating and it’s, it’s a pretty powerful experience. 

[00:58:29] Raise the Tide Member: I was really nervous at first about how would I gel with everybody else in the group, and would we really get to know each other, and would we really become close? It’s amazing how suddenly they become your biggest group of cheerleaders and your biggest advocates, and the ones pushing for you and rooting for you, and that was really surprising to me.

If you’re interested in this program, head on over to taramcdonagh.com and complete the Raise the Tide form. A rising tide raises all ships, but we’re not the ships. Together, we’re the force of the tide raising the ships for our entire industry.